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Susie

Susie Fong Post 1

23 November 2015, 3:56 PM Edited by the author on 11 January 2016, 3:23 PM

Unit I: Thought question 1

Let’s talk about lay and professional expertise. Healthcare researchers sometimes claim, because of their clinical activities, they can represent patient views and understand their needs, so they don’t need to involve them in their research. We believe this is a misconception. Whose side are you on and why? We'd like to know!

We look forward to reading and discussing your views.

Adam Wilson Post 2 in reply to 1

12 January 2016, 6:47 PM

Healthcare researchers (particularly those in close contact with patients) have a unique perspective, in that they share the health journey with patients, giving them insight into some of the most personal, emotional and intimate experiences. 

 

Whilst complimentary to the patient experience, their experience is not equivalent. Only a patient has had to personally experience the illness, the side-effects, and the impact on their physical and mental well-being. Researchers can gain some level of insight into this, but can never fully comprehend or experience it to the same degree as a patient.

 

Researchers can also have underlying conflicts of interest or pre-conceived views, which may impact (consciously or sub-consciously) on their representation of patients views and needs.

 

This is why it is important to seek the real patient experience, and not one filtered through the prism that is the researcher's opinion.

KR

adam

IRENE RWOMUSHANA Post 3 in reply to 1

13 January 2016, 6:25 PM Edited by the author on 13 January 2016, 6:37 PM

View on thought question 1

Research is, basically, intended to benefit clinical practice. Healthcare researchers need to carry out research on human subjects. The Human subjects then benefit from the findings.

In my experience, several stakeholders - from policy to grass root level - have to be involved at all stages of protocol writing, before research is carried out. Researchers need permission to carryout research. They have, therefore, to have the proposal reviewed by Committees of both experts in the subject as well as lay persons. On the ground, communities have to be consulted for security purposes and for determining the local languages to be used in the informed consent forms and other study documents.

Fliers or adverts may have to be put out in a language that is clear to ordinary/lay people who are potential study participants. Sometimes, Community Advisory Boards consisting of lay people, such as Community and Church leaders and elders who communicate community members’ thoughts or complaints  and return feed back to the community on progress of the study or findings.

Thus, in order to carryout research appropriately, healthcare workers need to involve the wider community of lay stakeholders.  This includes the human research participants or patients.

Maeve Kelsey

Maeve Kelsey Post 4 in reply to 3

13 January 2016, 8:40 PM Edited by the author on 13 January 2016, 9:10 PM

I disagree with the concept that health care workers do not need to involve patient views in their research. Health care workers may be specialised in particular disease areas which in my view partially equips them in conducting research. However one cannot understand the real implications of a medical condition until you actually “live“ with it as a patient or carer. I am a health care worker who did not truly understand what “fatique” felt like until I developed iron deficiency anaemia.

Doctors often design trials with an emphasis on an intervention which optimally may cure a condition or reduce outcomes, patients on the other hand may be more engaged with a trial which incorporates symptom relief and improved quality of life. Engaging patients meaningfully in trial design offers researchers an opportunity to provide meaningful research with relevant research questions.

I would like to see patient and charitable groups engage researchers to conduct research on their behalf. This can be achieved by adopting the true spirit of doctor / patient collaboration in finding meaningful evidence based medicine.

In conclusion, researchers should try to find solutions with patients and not presume to do so on their behalf by excluding their views.

Donna Alexander

Donna Alexander Post 5 in reply to 4

14 January 2016, 2:19 PM

I completely agree with Maeve.  Its not until we are on the receiving end of an illness, experience a service or take a drug that we can truly understand what others,  the patient (or family) actually go through. That's why is so important that we include patients and and the public in our decision making when designing and running a clinical trial.

Healthcare professionals may understand or suspect how a drug or intervention might clinically benefit a patient but can't truly understand how the intervention or trial may effect all other aspects of their life until the patient has been asked.

I recently observed a PPI meeting and as a nurse I did feel frustrated sometimes with the questions or comments directed to the research team and felt quite defensive, but looking back the questions and issues expressed were of concern to that person and we as healthcare professionals should respect and address those opinions.

 

 

Gillian Wallace

Gillian Wallace Post 6 in reply to 1

14 January 2016, 6:56 PM

As the others have already correctly pointed out, despite their clinical expertise and experience in the disease area/scientific discipline, one cannot ever fully understand the patient’s needs without themselves having personal experience of the condition. For this reason, patients are very well placed to advise on the future areas of research which would be of the greatest benefit and relevance to the people it is intended to help. Although important and valuable for obvious ethical and financial reasons, new and effective cure/treatments are a focus of the research projects I work on, however for some conditions, symptom control and improved quality of life may be more of a focus for patients.

Adam Wilson Post 12 in reply to 6

20 January 2016, 10:09 AM

Gillian,

 

You raise a valid point. Scientists and researchers can become so involved in the process of combating disease and illness, that they lose sight of the bigger picture, which is about treating patients and restoring or preserving their quality of life. Not all patients necessarily want to go through invasive or gruelling treatment regimes so as to be 'cured', rather than be treated to sufficiently control their symptoms or restore their quality of life.

Thus, a patient's perspective during the design, running and analysis of a study could well be invaluable, and increase the external validity.

KR

adam

Valeria Kovacs

Valeria Kovacs Post 7 in reply to 1

17 January 2016, 1:00 PM Edited by the author on 17 January 2016, 1:02 PM

Although I think there is much more room for discussion, I wanted to share with you 2 examples that helped me choose a side.

I had the pleasure to listen to Gilly Spurrier-Bernard, president of Melanoma France, speaking about patient involvement in melanoma research at a conference held at our offices last Tuesday. She gave a clear example of the importance of involving patients/carers in early stages of a clinical trial, so that research is relevant to people affected by a condition. Her husband was participating in a melanoma trial and he was experiencing extreme fatigue, a side effect of the treatment he was receiving. However, even though a known side effect, data on fatigue was not being collected in the questionnaires as it was not of interest to the researchers, leaving a gap in knowledge and failing to address what is relevant to patients.

The second example is a personal reflection on the different perspective healthcare workers have compared to that of patients. I think of myself as a dentist that that could greatly empathise with patients I treated. However, I had to realise that I was not fully aware of what my patients were experiencing until I had to undergo dental treatment myself. And between us, it is really unpleasant… :S

I agree that research benefits greatly when patients/public are involved. However, the scope of research is huge and PPI may not be applicable everywhere, mainly in trials led by pharma companies, where other interests and objectives are present.

Maeve Kelsey

Maeve Kelsey Post 8 in reply to 7

17 January 2016, 7:30 PM Edited by the author on 17 January 2016, 7:58 PM

Hi Valeria,

I think that pharma companies should be making an effort to encourage PPI in drug development. I was discussing a trial with a patient last week, he was interested in participating in the study until he realised that it was a pharma sponsored trial. He immediately became suspicious of the integrity of the study and his attitude completely changed. I worked as a pharmaceutical sales representative for several years and often encountered negativity towards the pharmaceutical industry from doctors also.  

If pharma companies could demonstrate collaboration with patients as they do with healthcare workers, this would surely be a beneficial partnership to all parties and help remedy the mistrust that currently exists.

Best wishes.

Maeve

Jean

Jean Conway Post 9 in reply to 8

17 January 2016, 10:52 PM

I must also agree that patient involvement in research at grant proposal time throughout the life of a study should be a priority for researchers. I do however feel it can be difficult in certain settings. I work mostly in neonatal research when parents and neonates are at their most vulnerable. So far parental involvement has focused on how we can compassionately involve neonates in research in an emergent situation and never really focus' on what research parents think we should be conducting for this population. I think it would be difficult for the parental groups to comprehend what research would improve neonatal clinical care.

For instance a computer algorithm that will alert staff when a neonate is having a seizure, as parents may perceive that doctors would/should know when a baby is having a seizure (far from reality). I think in order to have parents involved in research of this nature quite a bit of public engagement would need to be done.

Valeria Kovacs

Valeria Kovacs Post 11 in reply to 8

19 January 2016, 8:11 PM Edited by the author on 19 January 2016, 8:14 PM

to Maeve

Hi Maeve,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

You know, at first I had mixed feelings about the course, as we don't use PPI and I thought it was not worth taking it... Pure ignorance I must admit blushBut after commenting this course with a colleague last week, I am relieved that I am not the only one. No need to say that I could not make her change her mind about PPI & research wink 

And after only 1 week into the course, I have to recognise that I was absolutely wrong and I am so happy about it big grin Lots of reflexions for the "diary" wink I am also looking forward to reading the paper Allison posted today about Pharma & PPI and continue experiencing how my attitude towards PPI changes. 

I am absolutely amazed at how developed PPI is in the UK. Here in Switzerland we have only 2 patients being trained by EUPATI... Quite a difference, right?! I will also have to do some research of what the company is doing globally regarding PPI. Maybe this is something that we don't get to see in our Swiss filial?... 

Last but not least, as I am considered a person (not directly) affected by a condition, I am finding the course really eye-opener! wide eyes 

KR

Valeria

Stewart Fuller Post 10 in reply to 1

18 January 2016, 3:12 PM

Hi everyone

I do not believe clinical activities equip healthcare researchers to fully represent and understand patients views or needs without involving them in their research. Regular exposure to patients suffering the 'same' disease can create the illusion of understanding their perspective but this fails to capture an individuals' personal experience. 

As others have suggested, without 'living' with a particular disease it is impossible to fully appreciate the impact on patients' lives and that of their families. It is important that researchers challenge their own arrogance in conducting clinical trials, assuming to know the views and needs of patients involved or thinking of becoming involved in research would be misrepresenting their needs and would demonstrate a lack of understanding.

BW

Stewart

Gibbi Sey Post 13 in reply to 10

20 January 2016, 11:54 AM

Undoubtedly patients and public involvement in research cannot be overemphasise. For far too long researchers thought that they know how patients feel and what patients’ priorities are. Thanks to everyone for the vast experience you shared.

I believe it will be better to involve users in all stages of the developmental pipeline of trials. However I believe lack of knowledge of PPI makes researchers reluctant to involve patients and the public in research.

Like Valeria, a week into the course has totally change my thought on PPI, but I am face enamours challenge in a developing world where indeed PPI is necessary but totally absent. I recently mention this to a well-placed researcher and he says ‘’but we are involving patients and the public in our research,’’ this demonstrates serious knowledge deficit of PPI.

 

Marco Bondoc

Marco Bondoc Post 14 in reply to 1

23 January 2016, 9:03 AM

I do not fully agree that this is a misconception. Especially in terms of early phase clinical research. Phase 1 clinical research is the first time a compound is ever given to human subjects. Understanding of pre-clinical data is imperative in writing the protocol. I believe that robust evaluation and examination of trial procedures undertaken by expert and qualified personnel is is essential in ensuring subject safety, therefore in this regard, lay input can be minimised, but this is not to say it should be fully eliminated. In our clinical trials unit, we administer pre, intra and post trial questionnaires that are given to study subjects to quantify their trial experience.  These validated questionnaires are then tabulated and analysed. We are hoping to incorporate the subject experience in the improvement of how we conduct future studies, in terms of improving our information sheets, our consent process, dissemination of trial results, post study medical care if required, involvement in future studies, and safety.

Valeria Kovacs

Valeria Kovacs Post 15 in reply to 1

23 January 2016, 10:51 AM Edited by the author on 23 January 2016, 10:54 AM

If a picture is worth a thousand words…

I wanted to share with you this 2:52 minutes video that perfectly depicts my side of the discussion.Worth watching, I promise big grin (sorry about the subtitles though)

“An uplifting story of a man who becomes an extraordinary surgeon, as well as an extraordinary person, once he experiences firsthand what it's like being an ordinary patient.” (The Doctor, 1991)

Jean

Jean Conway Post 16 in reply to 15

24 January 2016, 6:55 PM

Brilliant Valeria! Should be mandatory in every medical school empathy and compassion can't be taught but possibly could be understood wink

Thanks for sharing

Jean

Donna Alexander

Donna Alexander Post 17 in reply to 15

25 January 2016, 9:47 AM

Love this Valeria. How can I save this or send to my email?

Thanks

Donna.

Valeria Kovacs

Valeria Kovacs Post 18 in reply to 17

25 January 2016, 9:29 PM

To Donna & Jean

Hi Jean and Donna,

I am glad you found it interesting! thanks for your feedback!

@Donna, you can find the video in youtube here: https://youtu.be/khWp4HsczMk 

This fragment is actually used at my Faculty of Dentistry/Medicine in Argentina to teach about doctor-patient relationship. That is why it has spanish subtitles wink

KR

Valeria

 

 

Mariam Hassan

Mariam Hassan Post 19 in reply to 1

26 January 2016, 12:40 PM

Very interesting discussion going on and though I join in late , it was wonderful going through the diverse experiences of our class

Based on my own personal experience as a clinical researcher , I agree that it is quite easy to develop a strong false illusion that we know our patients views and needs . I am routinely involved in oncology trials and  I mostly have regular interactions spanning over several months and years with patient enrolled in the projects that I manage . I used to believe that I know all my patients quite well. I was also a firm believer that since research goes through a rigorous process of review for scientific content and ethical concerns by ERC/IRBs that also have 'lay' persons as members so we have adequate representation of patient's point of view in research. I recently had a humbling experience that changed all that.

A pleasant friendly lady enrolled in a phase III oncology trial whom I had been seeing for almost a year was asked to fill in the routine FACT-B (a validated quality of life assessment tool often used in research studies) form at one of the study visits. She said that she would like to know what I think of her quality of life right now and asked me that we should both fill a copy simultaneously and then compare our answers and it was eye opener for me! Here I was thinking that I know her needs and preferences so well and at least 30-40% of our answers did not match. She then went on to explain how that questionnaire was missing few crucial questions related to 'her' quality of life and that in some cases the form was just to not descriptive enough to capture her views on her quality of life

I realized two things that day

The importance of having qualitative research component even while doing quantitative studies (i.e. mixed methods studies)

The value of having patient input in research conduct as well as conceptualization 

I recently wrote to our pharmaceutical sponsor in this regard when they asked for local sites input in how ICFs are developed and translated in local languages . Along with suggestions for improving local language translations I also suggested that they should consider having relevant patient /public groups who give input on research agenda and be involved in pilot testing of documents such as ICFs and QoL assessment forms etc . In my opinion , not only would this improve research outcome this would also create greater public awareness about research and lessen skepticism surrounding pharmaceutical sponsored research that exists in the general public currently

Mariam

Jean

Jean Conway Post 20 in reply to 19

27 January 2016, 10:06 PM

Hi Mariam,

Thank you for sharing a great example of how we have dehumanized the patients actual views with so called validated Quality of life assessment tools.

I also recently had a parent point out something during a trial that none of us on the research team thought of or even considered being important. During the initial days of a neonatal seizure detection clinical trial a lap top was being used to display an EEG of a neonate who was at risk of having seizures. The algorithm is designed to alarm when a seizure is suspected (with a known false detection rate). Now you must imagine the scene of a distressed parent sitting next to their newly born infant being monitored for seizures by an EEG machine with wires attached to the babies scalp. If I were that parent I would be staring at the machine hoping no seizures were showing up!

The alarm system on the laptop started to show false alarms (normal and expected), but what the parent saw on the screen was 1 SEIZURE DETECTED THEN 2 SEIZURES DETECTED! The parent was distraught thinking the baby was having seizures when in fact they were false alarms. This may have been avoided if we actually had a parent involved in the testing phase. The alarm now reads 1 alarm, 2 alarm etc....

All the best

Jean

Mariam Hassan

Mariam Hassan Post 21 in reply to 20

31 January 2016, 11:18 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience Jean. It was great of you guyz to respond to the parents anxiety by modifying your alarms.

Mariam

Valeria Kovacs

Valeria Kovacs Post 22 in reply to 21

31 January 2016, 6:29 PM

Dear Mariam and Jean,

thanks so much for sharing your experiences, they are really enlightening!

KR