Discussion Board
Josh
I started reading the article and felt two emotions: pity and anger. I had to stop to go and do something else while I cleared my head. The story is a bit like a bio of someone on X Factor. How much is marketing hype?
There are all sorts of issues here
Is this a person with parental powers reliving their sporting life through the children?
Safeguarding: This is a child who has been deprived of a childhood if the story is true. When does he have time to be a kid, to learn to socialise with his peer group rather than be idolised by it? The psychologists have expressed concerns - I see parallels with child Film/TV/Pop stars.
Growth and development: the loads being placed on developing bone ends canot be good for later life, the amount of training he does and has done is crazy. There is a history of addiction in his family. No doubt the endorphine high is great at the moment, but what will he turn to if it all goes wrong? Also the story alludes to him being overplayed and taking beatings with little opportunity for repair and recovery increasing his chances of serious injury.
I see similarities to Chinese Gymnasts, pre Berlin Wall East Germany and Soviet Russia.
There is also the "what if he does not make it?" possibility.
In the 70's I taught in a large Secondary School in Birmingham that had a reputation for producing premier football players. Lots of our students were on the books of major football clubs. Our school teams were awesome winning most of the local tournaments. We often provided the ball boys for the FA cup at Wembly, local derby's etc.
The boys and their parents were sold the dream. They left school at 16 went to the club as YTS or apprentices and were finished at 18. These were lads that had played for school, club, county, England Schoolboys etc. Some but very few went on to play in the top flight of the sport.
When I moved to Yorkshire there was a talented Rugby League Player in the school. He too got his England Schoolboys Jersy and was taken on at 16 by a local Top Flight Rugby League Club. The next two years saw a questionable massive change in his height, weight and muscle mass. At eighteen he had a knee injury was dumped by the team and now drives a rubbish skip lorry for a living.
I know professional sport is entertainment and entertainment requires success, but I am not happy ethically that a child can be treated/manipulated this way and I wonder if it is possible internationally to more actively regulate the activities of coaches/clubs/schools/colleges to prevent it? Or does the money in "Big Entertainment" win the arguement?
I don't have the same misgivings. I do think that, if managed badly, this will end very badly, however the professional approach is coming into sports at an earlier and earlier age. I've coached a few guys that have been contracted on Elite Development contracts at 17 years old to professional rugby clubs. Provided it is being driven by the player I have no issue with someone choosing to pursue a dream and develop an elite performance attitude and environment. I don't like the argument of "losing/missing out on their childhood". If you look at what a large amount of kids in early teenage years onwards are doing it's drinking, partying, video games and not a whole lot else. I think the general standard of our culture is continually declining and sports, when approached and executed in the right way, is one way to avoid these issues and instill values and develop someone with character and who is in a position to excel at whatever he turns to. Yes he may fail in his goals, or he may suffer a career ending injury, neither of these are good reasons not to try or to hedge the bets and slacken the focus, again provided the focus is his and his alone.
There are points where his academic record are mentioned, he seems to be excelling in that aspect as well. I see sport as one of the best ways to instil values and a work ethic into people and to show the importance of character as well as providing a way of developing it. No one can argue that this kid isn't working his ass off, i would agree that there should be close scrutiny of the support group around him. For starters there's no way 10 trainers are required, pro sports teams don't have that many for a whole squad. The issue of loading someone his age is a myth. Growth plates are not damaged by lifting weights at an early age, weight training is beneficial for bones. The only time there is an issue is when kids are unsupervised or the coach is an idiot and doesn't know what he is doing (for more info look up Avery Faigenbaum). While you can't really know based on an article the uncle seems ok. The short fuse when it comes to criticism of any kind could be an issue, but could also just be protective and/or over sensitive. He is doing a huge amount for all the kids, not just the most talented athlete.
Burnout will always be a concern when kids start putting in that kind of focus, energy, and commitment but even if this happened I wouldn't see what has gone in before as wasted or something that should be regretted. What is being taught and learned must be remembered as well as the commonalities of success in any field. Success of any kind demands a strong work ethic and values. Those that I would consider at an elite level of success all have strong character. I would argue that even if he is unsuccessful in getting to the NFL he has learned huge chunks of what success requires and will be poised to succeed in something else when sparked.
Ultimately I see this as coming down to the character of the kid and how things are managed for him. If managed well even if the kid lacks character then that should be changed through what he is being taught, in school, in training, in games, by teachers, coaches, and family. The hero worship by his peers is a concern but not something easily rectified. My biggest issue with everything laid out in the article was that he repeated 8th grade with no other motive than a competitive edge. I think he s more likely to stall in playing progress due to too few challenges on the field. I believe if he wants to get to the NFL he needs to be tested. Those that succeed at the highest level very rarely, if ever, have a smooth road to the top but suffer pitfalls and challenges. This is important because it teaches resiliency and an ability to persevere and flourish under pressure.
I did come away from the article with concerns and an uneasyness. I think that was mostly down to him repeating the 8th grade and a suspicion that the majority of the trainers are a bit pish. I don't object to it as vehemently as Grahame though. I see character and values as massively important in everything we do. If you achieve success without character you will be found out and it will be short lived. I will admit this isn't always the case but in general it is true. What this kid is doing should be reinforcing this message every day and so I see it as a positive, especially next to the standard teenage behaviour. He's not going to have that much time to try and achieve his dream, there will be plenty of time to enjoy himself after, whatever happens, and it will be a lot better then anyway, 20's and 30's are much better for having fun; you have money and can do what you want.
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Some interesting and thought provoking points of view - do you think that this is something that only happens in sport? Music, dance and other forms of the arts have similar 'hothousing' - what about other domins?
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I think any domain is capable of supporting and driving excellence and an ability to succeed. It all comes down to the culture that the kid is growing up in and learning in. There's a quote from the "Legacy" book that goes "Your values decide your character, your character decides your value." For me it's a simple way to look at what should be prioritised when working with these kids in terms of education and behaviour.
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Dan, is legacy worth a read?! I see it costs £8.99 on iBooks. I'm interested in giving it a read. Chris
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I'd strongly recommend it. Although it's lessons are drawn from a rugby specific source/context the information and principles are applicable to any area. An aim of the author is to take the phrase "Better people make better All Blacks" and show that better people make better anything and so it's keeps the lessons broad but very interesting.
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I strongly agree with you Daniel. I am quite influenced by the Martial Arts training and its "philosophical code of conduct" and at any case I believe that training (not just martial arts but any other activity which involves the creation of habits and discipline such as dancing, swimming, running and so on) in early ages creates "warriors" of body and mind as it provides to the children tools which will help them in the future to feel more self-confident and temper their character. Being that clear, I had more than one case in which the parents of the child came to me asking if it would be possible to promote their son from one Kyu to a higher one because they wanted him enrolled in the next championship, when actually the guy was not ready yet.
The kid must learn to enjoy and respect what he does, because its evolution on the task is linked to their own personal evolution. Parents (i say parents but i mean the context surrounding the kid in general: even us a coach, teacher, tutor...)should know that their influence over the child is direct and it can be good, but also bad equally. If not, all you get is hindering the growth of the child and creating a confusion in their goals setting.
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Having the same emotions like Graham, I cannot understand how family, coach put priority on the business side and not the wealth of the adoloscent , they produce a machine and not a human being.
concerning other disciplines, i argue that in the world of classical dance/ ballet it is the same and more worth it starts already in younger ages Mostly by the desire of the parents the children get pushed to peak performances in very young age and to become high competitive. it's a pitty that children cannot be only child concerning their age groupe.
Upcoming problems are between others eating disorders, perception of body image, and the fear of failing.
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It reminds me of a film - Friday Night Lights. The star player, puts all his eggs in one basket and all his focus on professional sport. Then it all goes wrong. An awful injury - dream over. I really hope it doesn't happen in Josh's case, but you can never know
i have alot of kids who speak to me about their wish to play professional sport but I think that although this is an excellent target to have, there needs to be a back up plan.
i think it's all well and good pushing kids - only if they want to be pushed. I sometimes wonder, like Grahame mentioned, whether parents live through their kids success. I think this happens in all domains - even academia. How many kids are pushed down a career route by their parents from an early age? Probably many.
Pin this case - what if it all goes wrong? What if he gets hurt/ not selected...how will he react? Likely, he will view the effort as all for naught and go nowhere.
i almost found it hard will reading the piece to believe it was true... But you couldn't make it up.
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To me American Football seems to be one of the only invasion game team sports with practically no requirement for the sport specific technical and tactical. Aside from the quarterback, defence coach, offence coach, and countless others sitting on the terrace 'Any Given Sunday' style, players are robots, measured solely on how powerful, how fast, how agile, how explosive they are. I agree Grahame, it is reminiscent of gymnastics or swimming but im not surprised - for me American Football shares more early specialisation similarities with those sports than team sports.
Yes there are a host of ethical issues to consider, but i've got to agree with much of Daniels sentiments and say why not? If done in the correct manner under expert guidance, why, in a multi-million dollar industry where players are measured physical dominance would you not go all out to produce a mutant?
I agree totally that there is no guarantee he will stay injury free, but his first NFL contract along with his public image status & media exposure, not mention his personally & commitment to excellence at such a young age, im sure he'l have no problem finding a suitable alternative profession.
I have to commend the uncle who has probably identified American Football as the best opportunity. Other team sports come with a vast number of pre-requisite competences that im not convinced are even measured in American Football. To extend the point further, Josh's uncle has attempted to build the perfect American Football player almost a decade before the lad even arrives at the trial. If I take Handball (possible even Rugby) as an example, these games have transformed in the last 10-15 years and it would be near impossible to have predicted back then what the game looks like now (thus the competences one would require are ever changing). Not only the strategic and tactical elements, but policy, rules, even the removal/addition of positions on the pitch. If josh does make it, even if only for a short while it will have been one hell of a success.
The fact is that as sport professionalises and we as consumers continue to endorse the 'marketing hype' by watching the TV and clicking the buttons kids will emulate it. The more we watch YouTube videos of cats fighting with dogs the more people will make videos of that sort of thing. Grahame mentions 'manipulation' but manipulation happens in every day society. In the sporting context, whilst sport grows into big business teams profit from immediate success, treating their athletes as investments before people then the more we’l see of this sort of thing.
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I'm very interested in the reaction that this article has provoked - mainly the reason I posted it.
We are going to be examining a number of the issues raised in this course. Needless to say there is no correct or obvious answer.
As many of you know my coaching background was in swimming - a sport with a tradition of starting young. Currently I'm coaching tennis and I would ask you to consider if Richard Williams did not do similar with Venus & Serena?
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Grahame Cotterill Post 12 in reply to 11
• 15 January 2016, 11:11 AM • Edited by the author on 15 January 2016, 11:13 AMI have read the other comments but am still not happy based on experience. I read the article thinking it was an example of child abuse.
In my teaching career I met adults who had been, and taught children of military personnel, the clergy and other itinerant workers. They often had difficulty in making and maintaining relationships because they knew that in three, six, twelve months or longer they would be moving and starting over, so they did not make the effort to establish relationships which were often ephemeral. Josh in moving classes and schools and is similarly at risk.
At 15 Josh is pressing 1.5 times his own body weight, he is also sustaining injuries. He still has at least one more growth spurt to go through. This cannot be good for him long term with regards to bone end loading.
I knew an archer (sadly now dead) who as a 15-16 year old would regularly shoot 40 – 60 lb draw weigh bows. He won most competitions he entered and was outshooting adults in county, regional national and international competition. He was selected for the Olympics and underwent GB squad training, missing the opportunity due to injury which finished his career. He devoted the rest of his life to preventing other children from being injured. He set up his own archery shop and would not sell equipment that was unsuitable for children. I have seen him several times tell parents politely but firmly their choice of equipment was inappropriate and refuse to sell it.
His final years however saw him undergoing surgery to his injured body. Two new hips, two new knees and shoulder and spinal surgery before his death from cancer in his early 60’s. I took him through his coaching qualifications and can honestly say I learned more from him than I taught him.
I think it is great that Josh is doing well academically and I agree with the other comments that age appropriate sport is great for establishing self-discipline, goals, coping techniques, self-reliance etc. I alluded to and am aware of other areas where children are hot housed for performance.
Ethically however I have grave doubts about the photos of an eight year old and a six year old that to me looked grotesque. I also have concerns about his long term mental and physical heath given the regime he is being put through. I cannot reconcile the possible/probable harm to the child against the financial/performance reward in any sphere. You can never get back a stolen childhood and childhood abuse produces damaged adults. I can think of several names who illustrate childhood stardom/grooming that produce troubled adults with huge psychological/ relationship problems.
In regards to the injury part of your post the fact he is doing as much strength training as he is and making as much progress in terms of weight he is able to handle will reduce his injury risk not raise it. Obviously that is provided he is doing it with good form and an emphasis on high movement skill. This idea that weights damage bones and growth plates in children under 16 is a total and complete myth that has been totally debunked by researchers and practitioners with the world leader in it being Avery Faigenbaum. He makes all his findings public and free and a search of his name should provide information on the topic.
He presented at a summer conference last year and spoke about the research used to support the argument that weights were dangerous for children by those opposing strength training in youths. Of the examples used very few actually involved lifting weights, those that did were unsupervised children who let ego or stupidity take over and tried to lift too much and hurt themselves (he described one instance and if i remember correctly it was in fact the only example of actual weight lifting). There were NO cases where an appropriately supervised child suffered any notable injury (broken bones etc.). An example of the genuine research that has been cited against kids lifting weights was a boy in America had a pool, one of the pool lights went out so he wanted to change it. To make sure he stayed under until he had changed the light he tied a dumbbell round his waist. While changing the light he was electrocuted and died. The research out there is total kack. There is a huge amount of research that shows that lifting weights improves bone density and health in adults. It is now starting to be shown to do the same in kids. The reason it has taken so long is that no one would let their kids lift because of the common view. Avery used some videos as demonstrations of the need for strength training in kids, I'll look them, or similar videos out and post them separately.
As sad as the story of your friend is, it's not the same situation. If he had been weight training, with proper exercise selection, he would likely have limited or possibly even completely avoided the issues you described. The reason it's not the same situation is because archery, like golf or hockey, creates an asymmetry within the body. By continually pulling on one side of his body with 40-60 lbs of force for thousand and thousands of repetitions with no balancing of the body there will be issues with likely all joints within the body as well as the back. The primary aim of strength and conditioning is injury prevention, that takes on different meanings in different sports. In collision sports like rugby or american football it's about balancing the body and preparing it to take the impacts, in a sport like archery, golf, or tennis it's about creating strength and muscular balance and restoring the proper movement and function of the joints and whole body.
Everything we do will have repercussions in later life. I've played rugby to a fairly middling level but have been told I'm guaranteed arthritis in my shoulders by my 40's or 50's and thanks to a broken leg will likely have it there too. Everything we do, whether socially or in the hope of doing it professionally has a wear and tear on the body that will only be felt later in life. I know people who didn't do any sport when they were young and have just as many, or more, issues than people who have played to a high standard. A fear of what might be cannot be allowed to stop a young kid from pursuing his dream. We are all going to break down at some point, but if I made it to the pinnacle of my sport and achieved a life long dream then I'd never regret a thing.
The last thing I would say is it is a big assumption to make when saying he has a stolen childhood. He might look back in 10 years and regret putting in as much as he did, he might not, but to say it is stolen and he will likely turn out damaged as an adult is a big leap that I don't see justification for. The uncle does seem to be genuine in wanting a happy and successful life for his nephew.
On a slightly different topic - I have been watching the twitter of Alex Arthur (world champion boxer) today and noticing his comments on youngsters "making weight" to box at age 11. That is more worrying to me. Kids who weigh no more than 32-34kg at that age are having to shed 1kg of bodyweight just to fight in a particular weight class. I see links between the Josh situation and this. Who puts the pressure on? Alex's tweet today said "I started 'weight making' around 12. Far to young imo but I had old fashioned coaches." i Find that scary!! But in some places it's the coaches who put the stress on - which is the case here
I agree. Whilst body mass matching is appropriate in martial arts to prevent david and goliath fights, they sometimes make crazy demands. As an undergraduate my daughter was asked to loose almost 2 kilos in 24 hrs for a kick boxing match. She said no and found another coach.
And those are bad coaches, who need to be better educated or put out to pasture. The key is coach education. I don't see these situations as similar though. From what was written Josh is in control, his uncle has input, but Josh has final say and as long as Josh is the driving force behind the training and the amount of work going in I see it as a hugely positive endeavour.
I take your points on symmetrical weight training vs asymetrical weight training on bone growth and on supervision. However we are talking about someone who started doing this earlier than the American Acadamy of Pediatrics recommends. He is also doing it with large loads rather than light ones again against AAP advice and he started on it at a time when cognitively he was not able to fully comprehend the consequences of his actions. As an adult to be able to reach the pinicle of your sport is great but statistically rare. It is the ethics of this that trouble me and not just in the case of young Josh, It is such a huge issue and I don't have answers. How far do you go with a young child who has talent or natural ability? When do long hours and training become abuse? I have another personal example parents who gave up their jobs remortgaged and moved to the other end of the country so that child could train with a certain swimming coach. Within twelve months that child told the coach she did not want to do it any more but her parents were making her. Olympic potential but no desire.
The AAP are wrong. These organisations are the ones Avery Faigenbaum has been trying to fight for the last 20 years and are the ones that point and say the research backs us up, when what they are pointing to is a kid using a dumbbell to hold himself underwater who then electrocutes himself. There is absolutely no issue here when it comes to weight training and his age, what he is doing is beneficial and will reduce his likelihood of injury. Apologies for not posting any videos yet, but the reason I want to is to show the ridiculousness of the argument against weight training at young ages. If a kid squats 1.5-2 times bodyweight at 14/15, not unheard of or exceptionally rare, at say around 50kg (I think a fairly typical weight at this age based on those I coach) they are squatting 75kg-100kg. So even if you take the heaviest they have 100kg of force going through them in a controlled manner. Now watch-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNivX17-g4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PyVOrWR1iE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot5WcYpXal0
While I don't have any specific force plate data on these I know that advanced plyometrics involve several (something like 4/5) times bodyweight. These are movements like stepping off a box and jumping on the rebound. What is being seen in the top two videos is far more demanding. I've been told that NFL players when stepping/cutting at full pace will experience around 6 or 7 times bodyweight in one leg. The forces in sport are massive, far exceeding those of weight training, so why aren't these sports being demonised? Or even better stop the dogma around weight training and have kids do it, they will reduce injuries, get more exercise which this country desperately needs, and improve the movement skill and athletic ability of our kids. The last video was actually used by Avery in one of his key note talks, these are very young kids, they want to play football and need to learn to tackle early to engrain proper technique to reduce the likelihood of injury in later years. How do you prepare them to tolerate the forces in that collision? If you take away weight training, which would include things like medicine balls how do you get them strong enough? Bodyweight exercises only go so far, there must be a progression in loading to continue to stimulate anatomical adaptation.
Greg Myers is another who has done a lot of work in this area. A common fitness thing for kids is running, within a kids marathon, something becoming more common in the states to fight childhood obesity, there are 768 multiples of bodyweight. This kid pushing 1.5 times bodyweight is a non issue, AAP recommendations or not.
There are vast amounts of positives from weight training early, like injury prevention, better uptake by overweight kids as they tend to be able to lift more so their self esteem goes up, creation of better athletes, reducing the likelihood of ACL injuries in girls which are becoming more and more common, and making exercise more fun in general for kids.
"How far do you go with a young child who has talent or natural ability?"
Every context will be different so there's no absolute, but as a rule of thumb as far as the kid wants to go. They're not stupid, Josh clearly isn't, they deserve input and the trust and support of those around them however far they go.
Training isn't abuse. Inappropriate movements and workloads could be abuse, but they would have to be pretty severe for me view it that way rather than just a very poor coach who doesn't know what he is doing. I would like to point out that there are 10 trainers who have a vested interest in him making it to the NFL, I would be astounded that given his workload and their awareness of it there's not at least one that is monitoring him for signs of overtraining.
Unfortunate and a shame for the kid but it happens, and I don't see that as what's happening in the article. The uncle took them from a home with a drug addicted mother who didn't always come home and when she did she'd get in huge arguments with the grandmother, moved them in with him, started training them in a way that they didn't even realise they were training, gave them ambition, a means to achieve those ambitions, values, character, and in general a bright future. Why is a high workload being viewed as possible child abuse?
Grahame Cotterill Post 20 in reply to 19
• 17 January 2016, 3:28 PM • Edited by the author on 17 January 2016, 3:50 PMMy very last word on this as it is only a two way converstion. I do not know if you are a member of Sports Coach UK but there is an interesting article and an "agony aunt" page on this very topic in Issue 42 of Coaching Edge. I will happily scan and email it to anyone who does not have access to it.
David working for the UNHRC has written on the child abuse side of sport in particular deprivation of childhood and overtraining. Google scholar can give you 114000 references on the matter. I am not arguing all training of pre 16 year olds is abusive. But in certain high impact sports there are compelling arguments from sports medicine experts that say under 16's should not specialise to young and should not overtrain. As in any accademic argument there will be others that disagree. I as a coach feel very uncomfortable with the actions of individuals in a variety of scenarios that involve young children.
Dale, M.. (2015/16). Too much, to young. Coaching Edge. 42, 26-31.
Turner, D. (2015/16). 60 Second Surgery. Coaching Edge. 42, 7.
Human rights in youth sport a critical review of children's rights in competitive sports Paulo David London ; New York : Routledge ;2005
Was wondering if anyone's opinion of this has changed since we started the course?
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Grahame Cotterill Post 23 in reply to 21
• 30 March 2016, 8:21 PM • Edited by the author on 30 March 2016, 8:23 PMDan,
I had another timely reminder of this a couple of weekends ago in Northampton. I went in to breakfast and the only other people in the same time as me were Grandad, Grandma and grandson (aged under 14 I would guess). They had travelled for a soccer match the young lad was playing in. I bit my tongue as I listened to a conversation that complained about the expense and inconvenience of travel balanced against the hope and expectation that the Premier League club that this young man was attached to would soon be paying out.
I have read through the threads again and my gut feeling is still the same in that I feel that we specialise children too young in too many sports.
We put expectations on them directly or indirectly at a time when they are too compliant and anxious to please adults. When they do not have a brain developed enough or the emotional maturity to handle such decisions.
I accept your arguments about asymmetrical and symmetrical loading but too few kids actually follow the training plans they are set and consequently pick up injuries. Josh with his army of coaches may be different. I do not know.
I would be delighted if he makes it but I suspect there are no exit strategies prepared if he does not. The cruel reality is that very few do. A point Jeurgun raise at the conference
I agree with you about early specialisation. I still don't have any issue with what Josh is doing, I do think there may be more efficient ways of reaching his goals but I think there have been plenty of ways taken to get to the elite. I also agree that the pressure should never come from parents etc., however they should hold the child responsible to commitments made. I think the paper interviewing Olympic champions co authored by Kristen shed a lot of light on the behaviours that had a positive impact on the athletes'. What was also evident in that paper was, at least in some, was an extreme hunger and determination shown by the athletes early on. Management to avoid burnout is essential in these situations BUT I would not make a blanket statement saying that this early focus is bad. This is where the coach has to develop a good relationship with the athlete to fully understand them. The athlete will also trust the judgement of the coach then, so if they do say back off training a bit the athlete will listen. It would also be up to the coach to bring in the broader, less specialised training, for example gymnastics, to enhance the athletes training. If it's communicated that this will be beneficial for the athletes performance then they buy in and you limit the likelihood of burnout.
I would say in general I agree but can't say that in all situations this approach is bad.
p.s I hope this post makes sense I'm writing it in a rush and don't have time to read it through.