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Daniel Scott Post 1

20 February 2016, 9:56 PM

Week 6 Task

Attachments

Here are my scorings for the two tests. I did each twice, one from a coaching point of view, the other from a rugby playing point of view. It was interesting for me becuase if I was asked the same questions a couple of seasons ago, or possibly even less, the rugby answers would be vastly different.

I preferred the GRIT test to the PCDE. I found the PCDE revealed less about the individual and looked more at the support and environment. It didn't translate as well to the coaching PoV which is understandable as it was developed more with performers in mind, but with such a focus on supporting figures the score could be vastly different depending on the coach they're thinking of. I actually would use the PCDE to evaluate the coach and environment from the players point of view rather the psychological character of the athlete. I preferred the GRIT test, it was shorter, this tends to be perceived as simplicity, at least within the rather slower mental circles of rugby players, so athletes are more likely to do it. The questions are short, to the point, and most importantly in my eyes, all focused on the athlete. If I'm trying to evaluate an athlete I don't see the benefit in spending most of my time looking at coach/teacher input. I do feel that both can probably be improved upon, and that the optimum combination of questions could be quite fluid depending on the context.

Looking at the two tests I would use the GRIT with athletes I currently coach if I wanted to evaluate psychological characteristics. I'd use the PCDE to evaluate two things; the players perception of the coach input/views and the environment being created. And if I had new athlete's coming in; to gauge what kind of coaching and environment they're coming from and to gauge what input I'll need to have the impact and develop the values and character I see as critical for sporting excellence.

What I think could possibly provide insight is the spread of the answers as well as the answers specifically. For instance when I was doing my first test (I didn't use this one as my context was mixed and so a bit vague) I couldn't bring myself to put 'very much like me' for several of the positive answers ( e.g I am a hard worker) because for me I think people can nearly always push a bit harder and on top of that I always know when I've taken the easier option, not necessarily the wrong one, just easier. For instance I'll sometimes completely change one of my gym sessions because I feel beaten down and am really struggling. If it was someone I coach I probably wouldn't bat an eye at reducing the session, but I struggle to view my own training in that impartial manner. It was a similar story on some of the more negative questions and putting 'Not like me at all', as I would almost put it then a single example would pop in my head. So I found it difficult to talk in those more absolute terms, this could possibly give an insight into players thinking if it revealed itself as a constant. For me I think it highlights something I have always struggled with, especially when analysing a rugby performance; my ability to recognise and acknowledge the positives within my performance. As a person I tend to focus on the negatives, it's nice when someone compliments me on something but I actually get frustrated when I ask someone to analyse a performance in something and they say something on the lines of 'I did fine/it's good, relax'. I always want something I can be focusing on and improving. So I feel that maybe this could be plotted in questionnaires like these but it would likely require an already strong understanding of the athlete and at least a couple questionnaires spread out over several months or over a year to see if the answers tend  to stay around that pattern.

I did have some more thoughts on this but my brain doesn't seem to be working much just now so I'll leave it there for now.

My first ever 'Robin Hood'

Grahame Cotterill Post 2 in reply to 1

21 February 2016, 4:51 PM

These two test were interesting to me at two levels. On a personal level I think I would have answered the GRIT very differently 30 years ago. Today I come out averaging a bland "somewhat like me". Is that because I have accepted that I am "an old fart" and am unlikely to change or have I lost the strident drive of my youth?

I then did a different analysis where I used Q1,4, 8,11,12 &15 as indicators of drive and ambition with “Very much” scoring 5 and “Not like” scoring 1 and came out with a score of 24/30. or 4.8 out of 5

I scored Q 2, 6, 14 & 17 as tenacity including Q13 which I scored in reverse order and got 18/25 or 3.6 out of 5

I scored Q 3, 5, 7, 9, 10 & 16 for distraction and got 12/30 or 2 out of 5

I can see huge value in using this test with athletes and with students but only as part of a much more comprehensive assessment of attitude and ability. Motivation needs to be considered along with other personality traits and the demands of life, heath and family change with age. I think you would get very different results from a 20 year old gymnast and a 20 year old footballer because of the stage they are at in their careers.

I see huge potential in the PCDE questionnaire for performance athletes and students and would use it if this was the major part of my coaching but most of my work is coach education. I shall certainly make my students aware of its existence. It is also a good trigger for self-reflection.

Christine Nash

Christine Nash Post 4 in reply to 2

22 February 2016, 8:51 AM

Grahame

I think that attitudes/perceptions change - the grit scale has a scoring system to measure different components. Did you use this?

My first ever 'Robin Hood'

Grahame Cotterill Post 6 in reply to 4

22 February 2016, 9:18 AM

Christine,

i seem to have missed the scoring sheet. I  am in catch up mode at the moment. Direction would be appreciated.

My first ever 'Robin Hood'

Grahame Cotterill Post 8 in reply to 4

22 February 2016, 10:57 AM Edited by the author on 22 February 2016, 11:01 AM

Grit score 4

Consistency of Interest Score 4

Perseverence of Effort 3

Brief Grit 4

Ambition 4

Surprised I obviously put less effort in than I think I do. Or are my priorities later in life different? Also how close my selection were to the test mark scheme.

Christine Nash

Christine Nash Post 3 in reply to 1

22 February 2016, 8:50 AM

Dan - this is a very comprehensive response.

To pick up on a couple of aspects I find it interesting that you seem to answer both tests differently when viewing as a player vs a coach. These tests are designed to measure GRIT or PCDEs immaterial of context so that is quite telling that you have answered differently.

Also I completely understand when you mention feedback - coaches have difficulty accessing constructive relevant and appropriate feedback due to a combination of factors. I actually have a publication in press on that very subject.

Daniel Scott Post 5 in reply to 3

22 February 2016, 9:05 AM

If I'd done these tests even a short while ago I don't think there would have been a difference. What I'm really struggling with as a player is the frequency of injuries. But it's only recently that it's kind of wearing me down, and I'm actually having to consider stopping. Generally if I got an injury I'd go to the gym for a few months and put a big focus on it, unfortunately I'm getting concussed pretty regularly when I play and it's not something the gym can have much impact on. I'm up to 5 in the last two years and this includes only half a season and a preseason in the last two seasons. Something I've become more aware of about myself over the last year or two is if I can't do something all in I don't like to do it at all, it has certain implications for just playing for fun and when I can. I think the difference in answers is the realisation that my time in rugby could be limited and that my aim when I started playing isn't going to happen, as much as I'd like it to.

What is the scoring system for the GRIT test?

Daniel Scott Post 7 in reply to 1

22 February 2016, 10:53 AM
Attachment

Updated Grit questionnaire with score. 

Christopher Duncan Post 9 in reply to 7

22 February 2016, 9:18 PM

Dan - where did you find the scoring chart?

Daniel Scott Post 10 in reply to 9

22 February 2016, 10:39 PM

Christine has attached it with the questionnaires. It's at the bottom of one of the GRIT questionnaires.

Christopher Duncan Post 11 in reply to 1

23 February 2016, 9:21 AM

My scores as follows:

Grit 4.4

Consistency of interest 4.3

Perseverance of effort 4.5

Brief Grit Scale Score - 4.3

Ambition 4.6

 

Christine Nash

Christine Nash Post 12 in reply to 11

23 February 2016, 5:52 PM

OK so we have some scores but 2 questions:

 - what do the scores mean?

 - are they accurate?

Christopher Duncan Post 13 in reply to 12

23 February 2016, 7:22 PM

it is pretty interesting looking st my scores. They do seem quite high but I don't disagree with anyoif them. Like Dan, if I had done these back in July I would have got different results! I think one thing I've learnt so far is monitoring success and the quality of the coaching process which I run, which ensures that things link from week to week. I don't think in July I would have had quite as high consistency of interest and would have skipped from idea to idea too quickly without persevering to allow changes to be made and conclusions drawn. Interestingly, when looking back at the questions, I'm pleased my scores on ambition have come in high. I feel ambitious and certainly have big plans - however it's quite pleasing to see it quantified in a number scale 

Daniel Scott Post 14 in reply to 12

23 February 2016, 7:36 PM

I don't think the scores mean a huge amount. They show how we perceive ourselves but people lie to and deceive themselves all the time. I think they would work well as a reflection tool for the athlete. If they put a 5 down for something but were consistently giving a 3 or 2 then I'd raise it and challenge them on their perception of themselves. The issue is though that it's all subjective, my 5 could be someone else's 3 (I'm actually having an issue with something along the same lines just now). Because of this it's difficult to see it being a resource you can really rely on and point to when looking to the future. I think you'll learn more from watching the athletes, seeing who is always showing up, who always pushes themselves, who embraces the challenges.

Considering the above points no. People deceive themselves far too often. I have kids who are adamant they're putting in the work and pushing themselves, they may be but not with me, they'll spend 40 minutes of a 1 hour session talking and pissing around. I think too many of the questions are subjective as well, even if people were completely honest, there's no absolute to compare each score against.

I think these have a use and can aid a coach but at the end of it all the coach has the responsibility, tests can't do it for them.

Christine Nash

Christine Nash Post 15 in reply to 14

23 February 2016, 8:23 PM

Some excellent points made by both Chris & Dan. I think there are a number of ways of looking at this - we generally would look at using this before and after some intervention. Like Chris said his scores may have been different before starting this course. Usually when you do this pre & post peoples' perceptions usually remain high or low - in other words it is subjective to their experiences but tends to move up or down according to their set of values.

Also Dan yes people do delude themselves but I think as a coach if you see people give themselves a 5 when you think they are a 3 then that opens up some great areas for discussion. What are their expectations? If they are already a 5 then why do they keep coming to training/practice?

GRIT has been shown to have a great deal of accuracy in a number of different situations but I would imagine it works best with large groups, where the high scorers are balanced by the low scorers. The numbers I have used tend to be in the 100's - 500-700 in total.  This makes a difference.

 

My first ever 'Robin Hood'

Grahame Cotterill Post 16 in reply to 14

23 February 2016, 8:54 PM

I agree with you Dan and the possibility of self delusion is so easy. The coach cannot do anything if the athlete is not putting in the work. This is a bit like what we were talking about yesterday when talented? (Bigger, heavier, older kids do not feel they have to train) Then give up because other kids catch them up and or pass them because they are putting in more effort.

Christopher Duncan Post 18 in reply to 16

23 February 2016, 9:22 PM

What's your view on age groups Grahame? In schools, the rule of thumb is that pupils should play in their year groups only. I don't personally agree - talented players get into bad habits if they're playing with those who are below their level. Should they be pushed to the higher age grade early? so, rated on ability rather than age? 

My first ever 'Robin Hood'

Grahame Cotterill Post 20 in reply to 18

25 February 2016, 9:03 PM

It depends on the sport Chris I see nothing wrong with athletes competing at ability level providing there is no risk to health/development but obviously this is not possible in some contact sports. I agree with you about talented players and think it is benificial to their development to play with the big boys/girls sometimes.

Christopher Duncan Post 21 in reply to 20

25 February 2016, 9:16 PM

I constantly have this discussion because in hockey there is no physical concern with playing people up a level, unlike rugby where it wouldn't work. However, the response I always here is, "but they'll get big headed when they come back down to my team". Is this an example of a coach who is about Talent ID and wanting to win instead of prioritising development...Surely the concept of the player playing up a level is to prepare them for the future, rather than improve their age-group team

My first ever 'Robin Hood'

Grahame Cotterill Post 22 in reply to 21

26 February 2016, 5:16 PM

In my limited experience Kids are delighted to get a game. Sometimes the issue is overplaying them. I saw lots of my pupils iin Birmingham turn out for a senior team in cricket on a Saturday and play for the Juniors mid week or on a Sunday. It is often not the Kids that get big headed but Pushy Parents that cause problems.

Christopher Duncan Post 17 in reply to 14

23 February 2016, 9:20 PM

True Dan. I wonder how the scores would look if you got your athletes to fill them in to rate you? I may try it. Couldn't agree more with your point regarding how we perceive ourselves to do things and in reality, we may not. Christine - I've googled but can't find anythi on well known coaches using this test and a display of their scores? Be interesting to see how some view themselves?

Christine Nash

Christine Nash Post 19 in reply to 17

24 February 2016, 9:43 AM

I have not come across Grit's use in coaching yet. I'm actually writing an article using it at present but only loosely related to sport and coaching